 
[11:02] <rdieter> KDE SIG meeting start, who's present today?
[11:02] <Stalwart> me
[11:02] <SMParrish> here
[11:02] <Kevin_Kofler> Me too. :-)
[11:02] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- Init".
[11:04] <rdieter> ping: than, ltinkl, jreznik
[11:04] <than> present
[11:04] <rdieter> svahl mailed, won't attend today
[11:04] <rdieter> well, let's get started on the agenda
[11:04] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- kde 4.1.2 status".
[11:05] <orionp> I'm here with a small request
[11:05] <rdieter> orionp: yes?
[11:05] <orionp> Basically just help testing kdesvn 1.2.0 for KDE4 in rawhide
[11:05] <pembo13> orionp, anything specific?
[11:06] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- testing kdesvn 1.2.0 (for KDE4) in rawhide".
[11:06] <pembo13> orionp, or just give it a general try?
[11:06] <orionp> Just give it a try, maybe protocol integration?
[11:07] <orionp> I'm a KDE4 nood
[11:07] <rdieter> ok, can do
[11:07] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- kde 4.1.2".
[11:07] <orionp> Thanks
[11:07] <rdieter> next topic: kde-4.1.2 status
[11:07] <rdieter> all imported/built for F-9/F-10.
[11:07] <rdieter> than: looks like you're hunting down stray icons?
[11:08] <than> yes, i'm working on this
[11:08] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler was kind enough to fix cdparanoia/kdemultimedia builds for F-10 earlier today
[11:09] <rdieter> than: let me know when things settle down, and we can prepare a bodhi update.
[11:09] <rdieter> anything else that needswork kde-4.1.2-wise?
[11:09] <than> systemseetings looks fine now, i don't see any missing icons there
[11:10] <rdieter> than: missing icons in general (oxygen) or with echo ?
[11:10] <pembo13> than, is this in rawhide?
[11:10] <Kevin_Kofler> I think we want the Fedora-KDE icon theme changes from the F10 kde-settings also in the F9 one.
[11:10] <than> in oxygen
[11:10] <jreznik> oxygen is ok
[11:10] <jreznik> but echo is missing many icons
[11:10] <Kevin_Kofler> By the way, shouldn't we bump the kde-settings version in Rawhide (to 4.1)?
[11:10] <pembo13> ah, ok.. thought we were talking abotu echo
[11:10] <Kevin_Kofler> Right now we have overlapping versions with different tarballs.
[11:10] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: yes, bump version
[11:11] <than> Kevin_Kofler: +1
[11:11] [Notify] thiago went offline (irc.freenode.org).
[11:11] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: which Fedora-KDE icon changes for F-9 are you talking about?
[11:11] <Kevin_Kofler> OK, I'll handle kde-settings (bumping versions properly and updating the F9 one).
[11:11] <rdieter> switching to echo? or something else?
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler> * Tue Sep 16 2008 Than Ngo <than@redhat.com> 4.0-27
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler> - remove unneeded symlinks in Fedora-KDE icon theme
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler> * Tue Sep 16 2008 Than Ngo <than@redhat.com> 4.0-26
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler> - fix, systemsettings->icons doesn't show icons by Fedora-KDE
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler>   icon theme
[11:12] <Kevin_Kofler> Echo is currently disabled even in the Rawhide version.
[11:12] <rdieter> ok, agreed.
[11:13] <jreznik> can echo fall down to oxygen when icon is missing?
[11:13] <Kevin_Kofler> Yes, but with one caveat.
[11:13] <Kevin_Kofler> KDE 4 will prefer more generic fallbacks from the same theme before considering fallback to an inherited theme.
[11:13] <rdieter> a generic echo icon, is prefered to an exact fallback
[11:14] <Kevin_Kofler> So if foo-bar-baz is not available, it will try foo-bar and even foo first, only then it will consider another theme.
[11:14] <Kevin_Kofler> And some stuff relies on this behavior, like the start-here vs. start-here-kde stuff.
[11:14] <Kevin_Kofler> It's also part of the fd.o icon naming spec, but nobody implemented it before KDE 4.
[11:15] <Kevin_Kofler> Not even GNOME, which claims to be conforming to it. (I think they still haven't changed it and might never actually change it.)
[11:16] <rdieter> anything else to discuss for 4.1.2?  move on?
[11:16] <than> Kevin_Kofler: imo it should fall back to inherited theme first
[11:16] <Kevin_Kofler> I still have an issue to fix for that in Bluecurve, where KMix gets a generic sound icon instead of the expected loudspeaker. I haven't had the time to fix this because I worked on more important stuff.
[11:16] <than> as it did in 3.5.x
[11:16] <rdieter> shrug, let's talk icons, echo 
[11:16] <Kevin_Kofler> than: Well, take this up with upstream and fd.o.
[11:17] <Kevin_Kofler> I don't think we want to deviate from upstream there, especially with code known to rely on the current behavior. :-(
[11:17] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- echo/icons".
[11:17] <Kevin_Kofler> It's a no-win situation really.
[11:17] <pembo13> rdieter, Echo was missing enough icons to make things confusing
[11:17] <Stalwart> echo might work well with gnome, but it looks really bad in kde =(
[11:17] * rdieter likes echo, but agrees about lots missing
[11:17] <Kevin_Kofler> The spec is even well-intentioned, it says they do this in the name of look consistency.
[11:18] <rdieter> see also: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=16de708d0809292221j54d041f8w9d85b127d2bc6552%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=kde-redhat-users
[11:18] <Kevin_Kofler> Unfortunately, this loses precision, which is often more important.
[11:18] <pembo13> eg. In Amarok, I had to make guesses at buttons for thing slike play, pause, etc
[11:18] <rdieter> pembo13: amarok1 or amarok2 ?
[11:18] <Kevin_Kofler> Echo doesn't even try to support KDE 3.
[11:18] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: consistency even with gnome is bad... perspective is wrong...
[11:18] <rdieter> kde3 apps are worse off
[11:18] <pembo13> rdieter, amarok1 (don't think I have 2)
[11:18] <pembo13> will look for amarok2 and try
[11:19] * rdieter goes to refill coffee, brb
[11:19] <than> Kevin_Kofler: i will take a look at icons spec first
[11:20] <jreznik> Wiki page about KDE&Echo, it's nice to have stuff on one place: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Branding/Echo
[11:20] <Kevin_Kofler> http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
[11:20] <rdieter> jreznik: good idea
[11:21] <Kevin_Kofler> "However, if the more specific item does not exist in the current theme, and does exist in a parent theme, the generic icon from the current theme is preferred, in order to keep consistent style."
[11:21] <than> we have to switch to oxygen back if the artwork team cannot provide the missing icons
[11:21] <Stalwart> in case of echo we cave consistent breakage
[11:21] <Kevin_Kofler> We never actually switched to Echo in Rawhide.
[11:22] <Kevin_Kofler> Just in kde-settings trunk and I reverted that for now.
[11:22] <pembo13> i'll update teh wiki once i reactivate my account
[11:22] <than> Kevin_Kofler: ok
[11:23] <Kevin_Kofler> So, move on? We have lots of other stuff to discuss.
[11:23] <rdieter> oh, ok, I think we'll just have to give up on any chance of using echo for F-10, there simply isn't enough time left for enough test/fix iterations.
[11:23] <rdieter> move on...
[11:23] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- mysql-embedded for amarok2, bug #149829".
[11:24] <Kevin_Kofler> We really need to talk to the mysql maintainers, quick.
[11:24] <rdieter> mostly an fyi, the next beta of amarok2 will need/use mysql embedded, which we don't have in fedora, yet. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=149829
[11:24] <bzbot> Bug 149829: medium, medium, ---, tgl@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, RFE: build MySQL with embedded server
[11:24] <rdieter> sadly, a very old rfe.
[11:24] <Kevin_Kofler> There seems to be some upstream brokenness like relying on a copy (!) of libgcc.a.
[11:25] <rdieter> I'll take a look at building  --with-embedded-server, and see how it goes.
[11:25] <Kevin_Kofler> This should probably be patched/sanitized.
[11:25] <Kevin_Kofler> Or at the very least, use a symlink.
[11:25] <Kevin_Kofler> But I think it should be patched to use -shared-libgcc.
[11:25] <rdieter> hopefully the mygcc hackage is no longer there
[11:25] <Kevin_Kofler> Then the problem will just go away.
[11:25] <rdieter> the comment about it was from 2005
[11:26] <Kevin_Kofler> Let's hope for the best.
[11:26] <Kevin_Kofler> Hopefully we won't have lots of red tape blocking us.
[11:26] <Kevin_Kofler> Sometimes getting maintainers @RH to do things isn't easy. :-(
[11:26] <rdieter> worst case, we revert to amarok1 (even though upstream mostly acknowledges it as unsupported)
[11:27] <than> is the code mysql embedded already included in mysql?
[11:27] <Kevin_Kofler> Could we ship a separate mysql-embedded SRPM and RPM?
[11:27] <rdieter> than: code there, just not enabled/built
[11:27] <Kevin_Kofler> Because we could rush that through review and bypass the MySQL maintainers entirely.
[11:27] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: yeah, but that would suck, mysql maintainer may not appreciate it either
[11:28] <than> it doesn'nt make sense to ship separate mysql-embedded SRPM
[11:28] <rdieter> though, if maintainer doesn't respond... well, we'll deal with that too.
[11:28] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- libkipi framework: kdegraphics, Digikam in F10".
[11:29] <rdieter> next topic: libkipi framework: kdegraphics, Digikam in F10
[11:29] <Kevin_Kofler> So the situation there is a bit complex:
[11:29] <rdieter> looks like kdegraphics-4.1.2 will be respun with some abi-breakage reverted, I'll have to found out how the upstream digikam devs are going to deal with that
[11:30] <Kevin_Kofler> Actually, it has been respun, but they didn't really revert anything beyond 4.1.2.
[11:30] <Kevin_Kofler> So it may get respun again.
[11:30] <Kevin_Kofler> And the libraw-based kdcraw which they wanted to do for 4.1.3 is definitely out. :-(
[11:30] * rdieter thnks that's just stupid.
[11:31] <Kevin_Kofler> It's likely we will have to patch in the kipi framework from trunk (or maybe standalone tarballs) for F10.
[11:31] <Kevin_Kofler> I also think it's stupid.
[11:31] <Kevin_Kofler> pusling asked for it to be reverted.
[11:31] <Kevin_Kofler> The Debian folks are always more conservative than us Fedora folks.
[11:32] <rdieter> strictly, pusling was right about being concerned, but I think it's something that warranted an exception.
[11:32] <Kevin_Kofler> Maybe complain loudly about the reversion on kde-release-team?
[11:32] <Kevin_Kofler> Saying they're completely breaking F10 that way etc.
[11:33] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: :)
[11:33] <rdieter> I already made a subtle comment about that already on the digikam list, I'll make another not-so-subtle one again, if things aren't sorted out asap.
[11:34] <Kevin_Kofler> Also complain to kde-release-team please.
[11:34] <rdieter> nod
[11:34] <Kevin_Kofler> Because that's where it was decided to revert.
[11:34] <than> Kevin_Kofler: dirk müller ?
[11:34] <rdieter> dirk was ok with the bump
[11:35] <Kevin_Kofler> He reverted on request of others.
[11:35] <rdieter> well, I'll ping folks, if I need help or more voices, I'll certainly let everyone here know.
[11:35] <Kevin_Kofler> (And the reversion wasn't even done the way intended by those who requested it. They reverted the 4.1.2 version to the 4.1.2 version itself.)
[11:35] <Kevin_Kofler> "reverted", I should say.
[11:36] <Kevin_Kofler> The only thing they really reverted were the post-4.1.2 changes.
[11:36] <rdieter> ie, not right. :)
[11:36] <Kevin_Kofler> And the respin didn't really change anything.
[11:36] <rdieter> nod, I'm not going to touch anything cvs/builds until the dust settles, and I have some answers on how to move sanely forward.
[11:36] <than> Kevin_Kofler: i didn't see his announcement for kdegraphics respin
[11:37] <rdieter> than: none was made (afaik)
[11:37] <Kevin_Kofler> It's all discussed in the kde-release-team archives only.
[11:37] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- kpackagekit status".
[11:37] <than> ah
[11:37] <rdieter> lets move on
[11:37] <rdieter> topic: kpackagekit status,  SMParrish ?
[11:38] <SMParrish> kpackagekit het .1 release yesterday.  working on builds now should be in koji shortly after meeting
[11:38] <Kevin_Kofler> According to the changelog, this now includes an applet and an autoupdater.
[11:38] <Kevin_Kofler> So the obvious question is: can we default to this in F10?
[11:38] <SMParrish> it should now provide the same functionality as gnome-packagekit  with less overhead
[11:39] <Kevin_Kofler> So that's a "yes"?
[11:39] <than> is it stable enough to replace gnome stuff?
[11:39] <SMParrish> I would vote yes at this point
[11:39] <rdieter> Well, testing it out is only way to find out.  
[11:39] <Kevin_Kofler> Too bad it just missed the beta, that would have provided useful testing. :-(
[11:39] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: nod
[11:40] <SMParrish> btw only works on rawhide.  cant build for f9 until packagekit>3 hits f9
[11:40] <rdieter> not making any conclusions, but since this did miss the beta, we will likely have to position this for non-default use, and as a tech-preview only
[11:40] <than> rdieter: +1
[11:40] <rdieter> but that's just my guess/perception at this point
[11:41] * rdieter will likely make a similar comment about knetworkmanger too. :)
[11:41] <SMParrish> ok with me but I do want to make it so it is installed as part of the kde desktop.  dont want ppl to have to hunt for it
[11:41] <jreznik> too much new stuff for F10 and too late
[11:41] <Kevin_Kofler> Uh, F9 switched from pirut/pup to PackageKit at the very last moment.
[11:41] <Kevin_Kofler> Why can't we do the same?
[11:41] <rdieter> SMParrish: what happens if *both* kpackagekit and gnome-packagekit are installed?  (might be a problem)
[11:42] <Kevin_Kofler> IIRC, we didn't have PackageKit at all in F9 beta.
[11:42] <Kevin_Kofler> So I don't think it's too late to make the change.
[11:42] <rdieter> shrug, I'm ok with trying it out for now, and see how things go.  any objections to adding to comps/kde-desktop default?
[11:43] <SMParrish> they can coexist but it is going to be confusing
[11:43] <rdieter> if no objections, I'll look to update comps
[11:43] <SMParrish> different icons and both would try and keep usuers informed of updates
[11:43] <rdieter> SMParrish: right, so using both is not really an option.
[11:43] <Kevin_Kofler> I don't think users will easily end up with both.
[11:44] <Kevin_Kofler> The live CDs will have one, and on upgrades they'll just get the upgrade to the GNOME stuff.
[11:45] <rdieter> alrighty, I see no objections... let's move on... next topic: knetworkmanager status
[11:45] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- knetworkmanager status".
[11:45] <rdieter> dgilmore?  got a sec for a quick comment on knetworkmanger status?
[11:45] <Kevin_Kofler> So the thing is, if we're still not going to default to it in F10, what do we provide as the rationale in the release notes?
[11:45] <rdieter> Last I knew, knetworkmanager kinda-sorta works, and at least builds now.  
[11:46] <Kevin_Kofler> "Since knetworkmanager does not work with the version of NetworkManager available in this release" won't cut it anymore.
[11:46] <rdieter> I'd still aruge to *not* make it default, due to it being fragile and it's immature gui
[11:46] <Kevin_Kofler> So should I put something like the following in the release notes?
[11:47] <pembo13> sounds good
[11:47] <rdieter> shrug, I'm on the fence whether rationalizing in release notes are worth it.  
[11:47] * pembo13 needs to start reading release notes
[11:47] <rdieter> but if others think it should be there, that's fine.
[11:47] <Kevin_Kofler> Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the NetworkManager 0.7 prerelease in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use, the KDE Live images use nm-applet ...
[11:47] <jreznik> if it is not mature yet we should wait for F11
[11:47] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: +1, perfect.
[11:47] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: +1
[11:48] <Kevin_Kofler> And add "knetworkmanager can be installed from the repository."
[11:48] <Kevin_Kofler> Or is that redundant?
[11:48] <rdieter> I think it's worth mentioning that it *is* available, for those who want it
[11:48] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: can be installed...
[11:48] <jreznik> and maybe some testing note would be fine
[11:49] <rdieter> though... Fedora 10 includes knetworkmanager... does imply already that it is available.
[11:49] <rdieter> available, but not installed by default... maybe.
[11:50] <rdieter> use your best judgement.  :)
[11:50] <dgilmore> rdieter: sure
[11:50] <dgilmore> rdieter: iupdated rawhide last week to current svn which builds and seems to work
[11:51] <dgilmore> right now nm-applet clobbers it and it has all the useability issues still
[11:51] <rdieter> dgilmore: what do you think of the statement:  Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the NetworkManager 0.7 prerelease in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use
[11:51] <dgilmore> rdieter: that sounds fine
[11:52] <rdieter> okie dokie...
[11:52] <rdieter> last topic: F-10/kde artwork, theme.
[11:52] <dgilmore> there really needs to be a way to say i want nm-applet or knetworkmanager
[11:52] <rdieter> dgilmore: we've got some hacks to make installing knetworkmanger disable nm-applet, if you're interested.
[11:53] <rdieter> but it's an all-or-nothing thing
[11:53] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- F-10/kde artwork, theme.".
[11:53] <rdieter> F-10 artwork/theming.  status?  anyone working on that?
[11:53] <Kevin_Kofler> How does this sound? "Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the prerelease of NetworkManager 0.7 in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use, the KDE Live images use nm-applet from NetworkManager-gnome instead (as in Fedora 8 and 9). The gnome-keyring-daemon facility saves passwords for these encryption technologies. knetworkmanager can, however, be installed from the repo
[11:53] <Kevin_Kofler> sitory."
[11:53] <jreznik> splash - there is now splash for Gnome, so we have to design our own
[11:54] <Kevin_Kofler> Missing "no", right?
[11:54] <Stalwart> mistyped "w"
[11:54] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: no of course
[11:54] <jreznik> I've already asked Samuel to design mockup for us
[11:54] <dgilmore> rdieter: not intrested.  id rathe have some other way to. enable it and be able to switch at will
[11:54] <Stalwart> kushal is working on KDM theme
[11:55] <rdieter> dgilmore: ok.
[11:55] <rdieter> dgilmore: I agree with your sentiments 100%
[11:55] <rdieter> ok, so we need: ksplash, kdm theme, wallpaper, anything else?
[11:55] <jreznik> plymouth will have interesting splash http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/3/34/F10-solar-plymouth1.swf
[11:56] <jreznik> ksplash, kdm theme, wallpaper
[11:56] <jreznik> I can update branding wiki page
[11:56] <Stalwart> if we have sprites we can do smaller version of plymouth splash for kde
[11:57] <Kevin_Kofler> SWF? WTF?
[11:57] <Stalwart> but it doesn't display progress
[11:57] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: it's only mockup :)
[11:57] <Kevin_Kofler> Why are they using non-Free formats for Fedora material?
[11:57] <Stalwart> swf spec is free afaik
[11:57] <Stalwart> no software, yes =(
[11:58] <Kevin_Kofler> It's patent-encumbered.
[11:58] <Kevin_Kofler> At least for all the sound and video stuff.
[11:58] <f13> not all the video
[11:58] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: we can flame later on #fedora-kde :)
[11:58] <jreznik> now back to art
[11:58] <jreznik> (work)
[11:59] <jreznik> we are going out of time
[11:59] <rdieter> jreznik: thx, when you've got the branding wiki updated, let us know
[11:59] [Notify] racor is online (irc.freenode.org).
[12:00] <rdieter> anything else wrt art/theming/branding
[12:00] <rdieter> ?
[12:00] <Kevin_Kofler> I think KDM and KSplash is all.
[12:00] <Kevin_Kofler> Well, and dragging in the desktop backgrounds in kde-settings.
[12:01] <Kevin_Kofler> So kushal is working on the KDM theme, who's doing KSplash?
[12:02] <Stalwart> sstorari?
[12:02] <Stalwart> i mean, it needs to be drawn first
[12:02] <Stalwart> for kdm we have mockup, but not for ksplash
[12:02] <jreznik> I'm in touch with sstorari for ksplash
[12:02] <Kevin_Kofler> Well, we could hack up the Anaconda image.
[12:03] <Kevin_Kofler> But if sstorari is designing a mockup for us, that's even better.
[12:03] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: I think so...
[12:03] <jreznik> But I'd like to wait for Samuels reply
[12:03] <Kevin_Kofler> OK.
[12:03] <Kevin_Kofler> Keep us updated.
[12:03] <jreznik> ok
[12:04] <jreznik> Stalwart: you are working with kushal on KDM theme?
[12:04] <rdieter> let's wrap up, out of time, and take further discussion back to #fedora-kde.  thanks all.
[12:05] <jreznik> ok
[12:05] <Stalwart> afaik he's doing it alone now
[12:05] <Stalwart> but i will help if needed
[12:05] <jreznik> Stalwart: thx, I can update branding wiki